Robb,
In my experience, what you are saying is much closer to the core of the problem than what the author Chi Akano is saying. Diet and exercise are of course important to physical health and maybe a factor in a lot of mental health problems but greed and the ability to exercise oppressive power and control by a relatively small minority is surely a much larger causative factor that also seems to play a part in a variety of counterproductive life style issues.
JustMe- You said
I definitely agree about peer support and the central importance of basic human connection…
Steve McCrea-You said
But what is really healing is having someone care enough to be open to hearing and listening deeply…
I find both these comments very helpful and supportive. I have been trying for many months to establish some sort of peer support network in Australia. So far there has been little progress and a lot of scepticism. Many of the people I was hoping would embrace this idea are acting like frightened rabbits in the spotlight. They seem to believe that lots of qualifications from expensive and often unattainable courses are essential. They also appear to be frightened of stepping away from the re-assuring but often counter productive voices of the “professionals”. Even entertaining the idea of functioning without or with reduced medication fills them with dread. Horror of horrors is the thought of learning to live in the world without depending on government financial handouts.
The reality is that no one needs to abandon all these things and take a giant leap of faith into the unknown. One small step at a time is all that is required but fear is often an irrational and all powerful emotional driver that defies logic or even common sense.
As for psychology vs psychiatry vs counselling etc, these days I prefer to think in terms of “support” as needed, wanted and chosen by the person concerned using the apparently very successful Open Dialogue facilitation approach. I believe a considerable amount of this support can be provided by peers or as we usually call them here, Lived Experience Workers (LEWs). Many probably only need a little bit of practical hands on training and their own ongoing support.
In due course I hope to be able to report my efforts in a Mad In America article but at the moment I am still on the slippery slope making very little progress despite quite a lot of effort.
There is now substantial evidence that meaningful connection with a human being who cares and simply listens can make a huge difference.
Unfortunately, as you say, such facilities are relatively uncommon and when those few caring environments get taken over or infiltrated by institutions, as they often do, they usually degenerate quickly.
In my experience it is also difficult to get people interested in independent self care a.k.a. peer support which I believe could provide at least a much better partial solution if it caught on in any significant way.
I also agree with you that in the mean time, the best strategy is probably to try and avoid the mainstream systems as far as possible but that is not always easy to do and when people are desperate…
Hi Birdsong,
I remember the Dark Ages well. I was born in 1948. The first time I was hospitalised (1971) I recall a small group of us patients crawling under a barbwire fence and going across to the medical library at Latrobe Uni to look up text books to try and figure out what was wrong with us. Needless to say we didn’t learn much. Today it is hard to realise how we even coped without the internet so your point is well taken in that respect. It has made a huge difference and it is now possible to do research in hours that would have taken months or perhaps years back then.
I talk with quite a few young people with significant MH problems and what concerns me is how many believe the brain disease and medication story and seem to have little or no awareness of other options. From what I’m told, many of these people finish up overmedicated and dumped on the human scrap heap. This, as far as I can tell it is not universal. It seems to depend on which state mental health region they finish up in. Attitudes in some regions seem to be much more enlightened than others.
From memory my understanding is that you are in WA. I’m in Vic and I’m able to track goings on on the east coast pretty well but WA and SA are a bit of a mystery.
Hi Kevin,
I’m not sure why I have gotten so caught up in this conversation. Probably the result of a lot of disappointing results from many different mental health professionals including of course psychiatrists over many years.
There are many labels inevitably trying to classify people. Psychotherapist, councillor, support worker etc etc. In my experience most of these labels are meaningless. I can really only speak with any authority about the situation in Australia where the “top rung” are university trained PhD psychologists while the bottom rung may have little or no formal training or qualifications at all. The qualification mainly determines what they charge and the government rebate the client is entitled to if anything.
There is nothing here to stop anyone calling themselves a councillor and charging for their services but even if there was, it would hardly make any difference. I have talked with PhD qualified psychologists who have told me their training provided nothing more than an entry into a well paid position. They say they didn’t really learn anything useful until they started working with clients under supervision, The skills they then acquired seem to depend a lot on natural empathy and ability to connect with people as well as the skills and ability of their supervisor and the particular treatment stream they follow.
As I said in an earlier post, finding good psychologists, therapists etc can be a very tricky business. Labels, qualifications etc can have a significant bearing on what they charge but very little on their skills and competence or how much help they are to any particular individual. I also think a good match can be very important. There is no one size fits all and qualifications or fees charged seem to be a very poor indication of how useful any mental health professional will be to someone.
Hi Birdsong,
You say there is enough information online. There is also a huge amount of false and misleading information online. Those that I call Conservative Vested Interests (CVIs) have, for many years, flooded the market with false and misleading information. These CVI’s include pharmaceutical companies, the psychiatric fraternities, text book and journal publishing companies, universities, mainstream media, bureaucrats, politicians and more. The entire rort has been described as the greatest criminal fraud in recorded history. Despite criminal convictions and billion dollar fines in the US it goes on regardless.
This means that any young person experiencing for example first episode psychosis and going online looking for useful information is likely to to find bullshit and in many cases this bullshit can be extremely damaging.
In Australia, the same happens if they go to government MH advisory services or many of the government funded NGO’s.
I am just saying the it is not easy to get good helpful information online or anywhere else unless you have a lot of experience and know what to look for.
In my experience, even many well meaning so called professionals are clueless. Australia’s metal health services are more than a mess. They are a disaster.
Finding good support for mental health can be a difficult business. There is certainly no one size fits all. I’m a very old survivor of the mental health system and I am still trying to better manage my delusions, hallucinations, trauma etc as well as trying to help others as best I can.
I have experienced therapists who were downright destructive, others who were a waste of time and money and a few, very carefully chosen, who have been very helpful. I have also found that the more I learn about mental health and my own problems and issues, the easier it has been to find a worthwhile therapist because you know what to look for and what to avoid. If you are now managing to get by without expert or professional help I can only say well done. I wish you all the best from hereon.
As for online or in person my current therapist offers both and says some people prefer online. Particularly busy execs etc. I’m retired and need to force myself out of the house so once a month I drive half way across town to his consulting rooms. It is a day’s outing for me which I have the luxury of time to look forward to.
Robb,
In my experience, what you are saying is much closer to the core of the problem than what the author Chi Akano is saying. Diet and exercise are of course important to physical health and maybe a factor in a lot of mental health problems but greed and the ability to exercise oppressive power and control by a relatively small minority is surely a much larger causative factor that also seems to play a part in a variety of counterproductive life style issues.
Report comment
JustMe- You said
I definitely agree about peer support and the central importance of basic human connection…
Steve McCrea-You said
But what is really healing is having someone care enough to be open to hearing and listening deeply…
I find both these comments very helpful and supportive. I have been trying for many months to establish some sort of peer support network in Australia. So far there has been little progress and a lot of scepticism. Many of the people I was hoping would embrace this idea are acting like frightened rabbits in the spotlight. They seem to believe that lots of qualifications from expensive and often unattainable courses are essential. They also appear to be frightened of stepping away from the re-assuring but often counter productive voices of the “professionals”. Even entertaining the idea of functioning without or with reduced medication fills them with dread. Horror of horrors is the thought of learning to live in the world without depending on government financial handouts.
The reality is that no one needs to abandon all these things and take a giant leap of faith into the unknown. One small step at a time is all that is required but fear is often an irrational and all powerful emotional driver that defies logic or even common sense.
As for psychology vs psychiatry vs counselling etc, these days I prefer to think in terms of “support” as needed, wanted and chosen by the person concerned using the apparently very successful Open Dialogue facilitation approach. I believe a considerable amount of this support can be provided by peers or as we usually call them here, Lived Experience Workers (LEWs). Many probably only need a little bit of practical hands on training and their own ongoing support.
In due course I hope to be able to report my efforts in a Mad In America article but at the moment I am still on the slippery slope making very little progress despite quite a lot of effort.
Report comment
There is now substantial evidence that meaningful connection with a human being who cares and simply listens can make a huge difference.
Unfortunately, as you say, such facilities are relatively uncommon and when those few caring environments get taken over or infiltrated by institutions, as they often do, they usually degenerate quickly.
In my experience it is also difficult to get people interested in independent self care a.k.a. peer support which I believe could provide at least a much better partial solution if it caught on in any significant way.
I also agree with you that in the mean time, the best strategy is probably to try and avoid the mainstream systems as far as possible but that is not always easy to do and when people are desperate…
Report comment
Hi Birdsong,
I remember the Dark Ages well. I was born in 1948. The first time I was hospitalised (1971) I recall a small group of us patients crawling under a barbwire fence and going across to the medical library at Latrobe Uni to look up text books to try and figure out what was wrong with us. Needless to say we didn’t learn much. Today it is hard to realise how we even coped without the internet so your point is well taken in that respect. It has made a huge difference and it is now possible to do research in hours that would have taken months or perhaps years back then.
I talk with quite a few young people with significant MH problems and what concerns me is how many believe the brain disease and medication story and seem to have little or no awareness of other options. From what I’m told, many of these people finish up overmedicated and dumped on the human scrap heap. This, as far as I can tell it is not universal. It seems to depend on which state mental health region they finish up in. Attitudes in some regions seem to be much more enlightened than others.
From memory my understanding is that you are in WA. I’m in Vic and I’m able to track goings on on the east coast pretty well but WA and SA are a bit of a mystery.
Report comment
Hi Kevin,
I’m not sure why I have gotten so caught up in this conversation. Probably the result of a lot of disappointing results from many different mental health professionals including of course psychiatrists over many years.
There are many labels inevitably trying to classify people. Psychotherapist, councillor, support worker etc etc. In my experience most of these labels are meaningless. I can really only speak with any authority about the situation in Australia where the “top rung” are university trained PhD psychologists while the bottom rung may have little or no formal training or qualifications at all. The qualification mainly determines what they charge and the government rebate the client is entitled to if anything.
There is nothing here to stop anyone calling themselves a councillor and charging for their services but even if there was, it would hardly make any difference. I have talked with PhD qualified psychologists who have told me their training provided nothing more than an entry into a well paid position. They say they didn’t really learn anything useful until they started working with clients under supervision, The skills they then acquired seem to depend a lot on natural empathy and ability to connect with people as well as the skills and ability of their supervisor and the particular treatment stream they follow.
As I said in an earlier post, finding good psychologists, therapists etc can be a very tricky business. Labels, qualifications etc can have a significant bearing on what they charge but very little on their skills and competence or how much help they are to any particular individual. I also think a good match can be very important. There is no one size fits all and qualifications or fees charged seem to be a very poor indication of how useful any mental health professional will be to someone.
Let the buyer beware.
Report comment
Hi Birdsong,
You say there is enough information online. There is also a huge amount of false and misleading information online. Those that I call Conservative Vested Interests (CVIs) have, for many years, flooded the market with false and misleading information. These CVI’s include pharmaceutical companies, the psychiatric fraternities, text book and journal publishing companies, universities, mainstream media, bureaucrats, politicians and more. The entire rort has been described as the greatest criminal fraud in recorded history. Despite criminal convictions and billion dollar fines in the US it goes on regardless.
This means that any young person experiencing for example first episode psychosis and going online looking for useful information is likely to to find bullshit and in many cases this bullshit can be extremely damaging.
In Australia, the same happens if they go to government MH advisory services or many of the government funded NGO’s.
I am just saying the it is not easy to get good helpful information online or anywhere else unless you have a lot of experience and know what to look for.
In my experience, even many well meaning so called professionals are clueless. Australia’s metal health services are more than a mess. They are a disaster.
Report comment
Finding good support for mental health can be a difficult business. There is certainly no one size fits all. I’m a very old survivor of the mental health system and I am still trying to better manage my delusions, hallucinations, trauma etc as well as trying to help others as best I can.
I have experienced therapists who were downright destructive, others who were a waste of time and money and a few, very carefully chosen, who have been very helpful. I have also found that the more I learn about mental health and my own problems and issues, the easier it has been to find a worthwhile therapist because you know what to look for and what to avoid. If you are now managing to get by without expert or professional help I can only say well done. I wish you all the best from hereon.
As for online or in person my current therapist offers both and says some people prefer online. Particularly busy execs etc. I’m retired and need to force myself out of the house so once a month I drive half way across town to his consulting rooms. It is a day’s outing for me which I have the luxury of time to look forward to.
Report comment